Ruddle Me This! with Taylor Ruddle

24. Contact Juggling w/ Steve Wilbury

August 21, 2023 Taylor Ruddle Episode 24
Ruddle Me This! with Taylor Ruddle
24. Contact Juggling w/ Steve Wilbury
Show Notes Transcript

Today I am joined by Steve Wilbury. Steve is an international award winning magician, stand up comedian and children's entertainer based up in Nelson. I first met Steve last year when we performed on the Kids Day Out Variety Show together. I think I was the first person to do stand-up to children on that tour. Steve and I stayed in touch and have gigged together sporadically since. Today Steve offered to teach me all about Contact Juggling, a version of juggling that I had no idea was so rare of a skill, as well as relatively recent. We get into the history of contact juggling, as well as Steve's ambition to create an act that contributes to the art form. We delve into all sorts of magic and comedy geekery throughout, so if you're into those, you're in for a treat!

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Music Used:

Ruddle Me This: Funky Retro Funk by MokkaMusic
Ramblin' With Ruddle: Rock Your World by Audionautix

Hey and welcome to Rod'll Be This. Once again I am Taylor Ruddle, the Ruddler, here your host for the podcast and a really exciting episode I've got today a good friend of mine Steve Wilbury Steve is a actually do you know what Steve gave me a little soundbite of his own interest. I'm gonna roll that now So I my name is Steve Wilbury. I'm an international award-winning magician and I have a podcast called Laugh Prior Die that I host with Naomi Strain. It's all about living life with chronic disability and the horribleness of that, having some pretty black humour and yeah, I stand up and do stuff. Thank you Steve. I met him for the first time a couple of years ago, maybe a year ago when I sort of did like a little bit of a mini audition spot on a national tour called Kids Day Out which is like this very cool, like lots of charities and stuff support it. It is... Just go to the website go to and they'll be able to explain it much better than I could They just perform for children and it's a very cool little show Steve was a magician on that. I Believe I might have been the first person to attempt doing stand-up to children on that show Steve and I met and sort of stayed in touch turns out Steve lives up in Nelson where I sometimes go up and perform And in today's episode Steve really wanted to talk to somebody about Now, we do get into this, basically what it is and stuff right into the, right at the start of the conversation, so I don't need to give too much of an intro. In a nutshell, it is a form of juggling that Steve, as we learnt about halfway through the podcast, is actually one of very few people who can do it in the world. So I was quite honoured that he wanted to talk about it on the podcast. So with that, let's just get into it. Welcome to the podcast, Steve Wilberry. Morning, Steve. Welcome to the podcast. Morning, Taylor. How are you doing today? Yeah, good. Good. Sun is shining. That's what we want. Everything's great. So today we are going to, this is a new kind of direction that we're pushing the Rod or Me This in, which I've been enjoying lately is talking to people about, I suppose, niche or semi-niche interests or hobbies that they have. And you actually put your, you sort of volunteered to talk about contact juggling with us today. Yes. So what I might do is I might say what I think I know about contact juggling first, and then you can correct me and then we can kind of go from there and get into the nuts and bolts. So I have seen you contact juggling and you're using clear glass spheres or balls, and they're all touching each other, hence contact, and rather than... I guess like quote unquote normal juggling where you're throwing the balls into the air, you're sort of just rotating them around your hands using some like very dexterous finger movements. And from what I can remember, the balls never actually come apart. They're always touching each other. And you can do some fancy moves. Like I remember you showed me one move that made it look like you had three hands when you were doing it. Yeah. The one that makes it look like I have three hands. Yeah, so like basically that's my interpretation of it. Is there anything that I missed that you know of? No, I mean that's pretty odd point. The only kind of slightly missed error would be the contact juggling. It refers to the fact that it's in contact with your body. So most people these days, because I'm an old man, only do one ball. And there's a whole style that's just using one larger 120mm glass ball where you're rolling it around your body and over your head and doing stuff. So it's staying in contact with your body as opposed to toss juggling, which is normal juggling. Gotcha. And was it the kind of thing that you were doing toss juggling and got into contact juggling or had you always been interested in doing contact juggling? I've done bits of toss juggling when I was younger, camps and stuff. And then when I was at university, a friend was doing contact juggling. I was like, Whoa, that's cool. And then she took me to her juggling club, where contact juggling happened, as well as regular juggling. And they're all kind of under the same nerdy umbrella. Yeah. Does it take, like, for example, I know when you're trying to learn how to throw a juggle, they recommend you like start with a sock balled up and then, you know, graduate to two balls than three balls. Is it the kind of thing you have to learn one at a time or can you just dive into doing like, I think I've seen you do like, yeah. I can, so I can do, I can do like a couple of 10 ball formations, but eight's kind of my limit most of the time. Yeah. Once you get above eight, you kind of need other people to put the balls in place for you. Right. That only tends to happen at like four o'clock in the morning. sleep deprivation and juggling conventions. But anyway, question again, you're asking me, can you just start with one? Yeah, how do you learn? What's the process of kind of, do you need to work your way up from one or can you just dive into like three or four? I guess you could start with the one that makes it look like I have three hands is a three ball move. Yeah. And I guess there's no reason you couldn't just start with that specific move. Yeah. There's a lot of things that you learn with one ball. because some of contact juggling is mime and movement. And there's stuff that you kind of need to learn about the illusion nature of the ball before you move on to the big ones. Because it's a very mesmerizing- The hardest thing to learn. It's a very mesmerizing looking act, isn't it? Yeah, and that's the whole point. Yeah, you want it to be like sort of fluid and smooth and that kind of thing, right? 100%. It's the fluidity and like, the fact that people often can't even tell what they are if they're actually bubbles. And if they're clicking against each other or making noises and stuff, then that breaks the whole illusion. So it's a really fine level of control between once you're able to do the moves and then being able to do them perfectly, that kind of separates the men from the boys, if you know what I'm saying. So what I was going to ask actually was related to the, do they make any noise? Because I found it quite funny when you see, did you ever go and see one of those like stunt shows at like Warner Brothers Movie World or anything like that where they'll be doing cowboys and stuff like, in a show like that, if you're in the grandstands, you don't hear much of the... just like the actors grunting as they do flips and stuff like that. And I just always assumed it was done in silence. But then anytime I've seen them close up, you actually hear them like quite loudly go like her and stuff as they do these flips. It's hard work. And like I've watched pro wrestling up close quite recently for the first time, and I didn't realize how loud the sound of just their feet hitting the floor when they get knocked down and stuff like that was. And it is funny that. just that little bit of distance that stops you from hearing little noises. And so I was going to say when you're contact juggling, are the balls clanking together? But you just answered that question by saying, no, the point of them is not, not to do that. Yeah. Like, I mean, I'm, I think there's a couple of ones where I still have some few clicks. If it depends if I'm like, in training, like if I'm really, I've got a big show coming up or something, and I'm really like drilling it then. it's silent. But there's a few ones that if I let it relax, they kind of do a couple of tinks every once in a while, which when you're on stage, you can get away with. But if you're doing close up and walk around, which is what a lot of contact juggling gigs end up being, then that silence, I think is really important. For sure. That kind of adds to the mystique of it. And that, because I guess you almost want people not to know how you're doing it, right? I mean, God, it depends on how nerdy you want me to talk, but it has this really- I want you to go as nerdy as possible. You want me to go, all right, nerd core, all right. So it's technically a branch. So I've dubbed it Illusional Manipulation, which is a sub branch of graphic manipulation, which in itself technically encompasses juggling and other movement disciplines where objects are being manipulated in a predefined space or pattern. So I guess we'll pause that for a second. You've just given us the definition of manipulation. That would be like a magic. piece of terminology, is that right? So yes and no. So the term that I use is illusion of manipulation. So in magic, you have slight of hand, which is a move that the audience probably won't see. Whereas with contact juggling, the audience sees every move that you're making, but they still cannot make sense of it. That's a great way to put it, yeah. That's exactly how I feel when I watch you do it. Yeah, like there's no hidden moves. You know what's, you see the hands moving around, but your brain is just like, bar. Yeah, I was gonna say as well, how deep into the secrets of the med magician do we want to get with this like a Oh, I mean, there's nothing like the only thing that really protects the secrets of a magician is international intellectual property laws. Well, that's right. That's, that's not really correct. But, you know, there's, there's nothing you can't learn online. in terms of contact juggling. So my friend Drew wrote the book, Multi-ball Contact Juggling, which you can buy. But you know, if you meet me, I'll teach you. But just like with magic, if you like, if you get to know a magician and you're like, hey, I'm into magic. Yeah. And then they'll be like, oh, cool. Here's a move. And then you learn like the first move and you come back and you're like, hey, I learned that move. They'll teach you the next one. Right? Gotcha. contact juggling at conventions and stuff. Yeah. And you will not learn these moves today. It will take you several weeks of practice and diligent training to learn them. And then if you've learned them, then come back to me and we'll work on refining them. Like it is hard, but with all these things, if you can show that you're interested, most of the time the people who are really, really good at it are only care that someone else is interested. You know, I've spent my life trying to make this cool. You also care. Here, take all of this knowledge, please. I've been trying to give it away for years. So is contact juggling the way you do it? Is that fairly rare in the world of magic and contact juggling? Yes. Really? Contact juggling is it's, yeah, very. So I kind of have this really weird pedigree. Oh, we have a pedigree here. I'm like a hot bitch. He means that in the dog technology, not misogynistic. If you want to breed with me, I've got the paperwork. Your offspring would have tremendous contact juggling abilities. Dextrative potential. There you go. That's the technical term for it. That's your tender profile, isn't it? Our offspring would be sensationally dextrous. That is my grinder username is what that is. Dextrous. So I didn't realize how rare of a... Anyway, sorry, we're talking about my amazing pedigree. Yeah, yeah. I cut you off. Well, just, yeah, I didn't realize how... I didn't realize it was an uncommon ability. It makes sense given that it looks really hard to do. And the fact that it, like you said, there's no tricks to it. It's just, you have to be, it's just really training and skill. We were talking about something about how rare it is, but I'm not sure if you had something you're gonna go onto for that. Cause then you said, you said, oh yeah, so just with the rarity angle, there was this really bizarre scene in London in the early 2000s that was kind of tied to the squatting scene a little bit. and to the underground party scene a little bit. Yeah. And for this brief moment, juggling was really like hip in these scenes. Right, yeah. And I kind of intersected with that. Yeah. And I worked at the juggling shop in London. Oh, that's cool. And my assistant, and the manager of the shop, lived in a squat. And I would go to the squat for Sunday roasts. And then sometimes we'd go to our friend's squats and have parties and hang out and juggle. And that was just what we did. Right. Yeah. And part of that was contact juggling was coming in and there was just this weird confluence of like, like 20 people. Yeah. Really got into contact juggling that kind of spread out. And I lived up the hill from a guy named Drew Batchelor, who wrote the book, Multiple Contact Juggling. And when he was writing the book, he taught a series of six lessons. to get the pedagogy of how to teach into the book, right? Right. And I took those lessons along with seven other people, none of whom contact juggle, Drew still doesn't contact juggle. And the number of people who've been doing it since that time that are active performers is almost zero. I've only met a handful of people that, and I knew literally all of them because we all hung out on one website. Yeah, yeah. There was contact and the home of poi message boards. This was pre social internet. Yeah, yeah, of course. Um, and there was just this confluence in it was for the first time people all over the world could share. So you'd have the one guy in his bedroom talking to the other one guy in his bedroom across the world. Um, so yeah, so that's kind of where I started and. I've tried to quit performing a number of times, but have been unsuccessful. And for 20 years, this has been in my pocket. And because it is so difficult, those 20 years have kind of given me an edge that I haven't met yet. I've met in the 12 years I've been in New Zealand, I have met exactly one juggler, two contact jugglers who could... who I could like jam with who we were like, oh, here's a trick, here's a this and that. That's wild. I did not realize how rare of a talent it was. It does make sense. But um, to me, to me, who sees magic, it all looks hard. So I just assumed like, oh, there'll be, there'll be other people that can do that. Um, I was going to say as well, like the, is this a skill that you have to train regularly and to kind of keep your edge? Or is it like, once you've got it down, you've kind of got it down. the... Yes, and it really depends on how much you've got it down. Like, it's like I said, you know, even with me, there's a line between like complete perfection and being able to do it, that if I'm not in training will get looser. But once you can do the palm circle, like, or the one that makes you look like you've got three hands, you can do it. Right, right, right. It takes so long to engrave into your brain, it doesn't really work. Right, right. I was gonna ask as well, when you, I imagine you probably have different acts that you do as a magician, but how much, like is, would this be your, like your closing bit, or where does this, the contact juggling fall within your act when you do a show? Like in my, it's kind of about three quarters of, it depends on what show I'm doing. Right, yeah, that's what I figured, you'd have multiple ones. It's, normally I put it kind of three quarters of the way through. because it's really visually impressive. It can work good as an opener, as a demonstration of skill. But it's, so one of the things, there's this Swiss kid whose name I can't remember, but he was talking about contact juggling and how difficult it is for the audience to perceive because the sphere is such a simple object. Yeah. The shape doesn't even claim to have a color. It's completely transparent. Yeah. So you have this simple, undefinable object that people often don't know how they're supposed to feel. Am I mesmerized? Am I, what the fuck is actually going on? So it can be kind of hard to fit into a wider program. I do it as a palette cleanser after my needle swallow. So I do the needle swallow, which is gross. And then I say, now let's do something pretty, to like counteract. Yeah, because it is, people are really confused by it, which is fun. That's one more thing. And then I'll let you, with like the presenting it so much it's presented just as here's a person doing this thing, right? That's not motivated by any like plot or anything. It's just someone on the stage twiddling some balls around. Yeah. And when you have this incomprehensible illusion with no plot or format around it. it gets extra confusing. I think if you could do something cool with a reason these were bubbles and why this existed or whatever, then that would make it easier. Anyway, sorry, go on. Yeah, and I was going to say, because I'm fascinated about the structure of magic shows because a lot of it is in kind of the presentation of how you present all of these tricks, isn't it? Like you need a kind of, not necessarily a narrative, but you need a... Like, I'm not quite sure how to articulate what I'm saying here, but you need some, some like, uh... I think the word you're looking for is motivation. Yeah, maybe. It's something that gets used a lot in improv. And like, if you're making up like an improv scene, right? You can make someone believe that you just picked up a mug with a lobster in it, if it's motivated. There's a reason for that to happen. But so much of magic, especially older, like 20th century magic, is like... Here I have a box. Why do you have this box? Why is this box there? Why are you telling me it's an ordinary box? Why do I need to know that? But if you're like, hey, I got these shoes and you pull the shoes out and then you've got a trick involving the shoe or you put them on or something, you know? It's gotta have a reason to exist. Yes. Yeah, you need almost like context for all of the tricks you're doing. Otherwise, it's just a series of like visually impressive kind of like tracks. Yeah. There is like, you know, there's an amount of navel gazing with graphic manipulation. And like, there's other things like hoop isolations and batons. And there's, and it really mixes a lot with dance and like, mime and stuff. That's art. You know, that's the thing I want to present. But if you're thinking I want to entertain people, then I really think you need this other context around it. Yeah, that's what takes it from just like, it's like, takes it from a good show to like a great show, right? Is the kind of- 100%. The emotional investment, cause that's a big part of magic as well, would be the audience being emotionally invested in what you're doing, right? Well, yeah, yeah. And it's a lot of times people come to, or present magic in such a way that they come off as, was a prick. And, and the, it's, sorry. got distracted by my wife returning with a coffee machine. The beauty of live podcasting. I was doing one the other day about ghost stories and the gas man knocked on my door really aggressively and just about gave me a heart attack. I love podcasting. But yes, back to your, back to what you're saying. That's a good art. the, uh, we were talking about like motivation and magic. Yeah. Like one, so one, one thing that I really want to do, um, is a routine where I blow a bubble and then I turn that bubble into a contact juggling. Oh, that would be dope. Yeah. So then it's like, the ball is a bubble and then you have, then you have a framework to hang a plot on. Absolutely. Yeah. Instead of I have this weird. crystal object that you've never seen in your life before. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I'm going to twiddle it around and look how cool I am. But that's where a lot of magic shows, you know, come from that the conceit being, I learned a cool trick and I'm cooler than you. Yeah. Whereas really great performers, I think the conceit really should be like, let's play and have some fun. Like if you watch like Harry Anderson. Yeah. He does. Have I noticed? Do you know Harry Anderson? I may have. He was a. Go ahead. Oh, can you hear that kettle? No. Okay, sorry. My wife's boiling a jug. So Harry Anderson's opener is a three card Monte trick, but it's a three card Monte trick where nobody loses. He's like, hey, it's over here. Look at this thing. Look at that. And the whole point of it is that you're having fun. Things are changing. Let's have a laugh. Yeah. Whereas if you have a trick that's like, oh, you got it wrong. You got it wrong. Right. You're wrong. I'm smart. You're wrong. People aren't going to want to invest in that. No, not at all. Fuck out of here. Yeah. There was this old thing you used to see in magic. I guess it's not done so much anymore due to just the whole idea of cultural appropriation, but the magician would be like, I studied for seven years in the mysterious Asia to learn this, you know, disappearing. disappearing box trick or something but like have you ever heard the story of chunling sue i don't think so i don't think so chunling sue was a white guy who spent his entire career pretending to be from china wearing big chinese robes and i'm pretty sure that's his name i could be wrong but anyway this you get the idea he wasn't the only person to do this back of course he was the most famous and he would never speak yeah And so the presumption was that he didn't speak English. Of course. He would just do these mysterious tricks. Yeah. And one of his tricks was the bullet catch. Oh, right. Yep. And he got shocked in front of an audience. And the only thing anyone ever heard him say was something's gone horribly wrong. Oh, I have heard this story. Yes. Yeah. And then the curtain went down. Wow. Does. Does that happen? I imagine magicians get injured quite a lot on their shows, but is death super common? Only with the bullet trick. Yeah, you're kind of... I mean, source following is not really a magic trick. That's another one of those things, that's just a human ability. Because I think, I imagine magicians hate people bringing up the prestige, but... Oh, I love it, it's a fantastic film. Okay, well then I'll continue talking about it then. They just talked about the thing of the theme in that movie was the fact that a lot of these things that appeared like tricks are actually just the result of kind of training and sort of almost putting your body through, not hell, but yeah, putting your body through tricky. That's kind of where David Blaine went, wasn't it? He was like, I'm going to just be in a box or I'm going to be in an ice cube. I'm going to stick an ice pick through my hand. Yeah, or like there's a trick where you can put a needle through your bicep. Yeah. And it doesn't bleed in it. Yeah. And he did it for like Ricky Gervais and Ricky Gervais was like, well, is that a trick or is that fucking disgusting? Oh, yeah. You know, and I think that's, you know, you've really lost sight of... Why am I doing this? How is an audience benefiting from me being suspended in a box or am I just warning people that I'm cool? Which is magicians all over because magicians start as kids and they never develop. Oh, is it when they get trapped in that kind of mentality of being five years old doing contracts? If you're an eight year old and you can blow a grownup's mind, then like that's... does something to you, you think, oh, I'm obviously very smart and intelligent because I'm smarter than grownups. I surely don't need to change as a person. This is a gross overgeneralization. It's probably offensive to a lot of magicians, but I've been to conventions. I've seen these people. They exist. Well, I think with any kind of performing arts, they do tend to attract people that the validation they get from their performing art to fill this hole rather than maybe seeking it internally. So I can definitely understand people getting into magic for the wrong reasons, I suppose. I don't know whether that's controversial to say wrong reasons, but... No, but I think that it's just the... It's kids that... They would have got drawn to something, you know? They're looking for a way. And then I remember I was talking to somebody... and they realized when they were like 17 or 18 that they were just getting ready to just go out. And he was like, right, I've got my cards in my pocket, I've got my this, I've got my that, and he's like, what am I doing? I'm just going out, like, I don't need tricks to talk to people. ALICE He was just gonna go out to a bar, but he thought I'll bring some of my magic stuff. STAN Yeah, he was just going out for a night, and he was like, I'm making sure he had all his magic stuff. And then he was like, I've been living a lie. my whole life, you know? Interesting. And it's, if you watch like magic training stuff, there's always a hot chick in the video, like being the volunteer. Right, right. And that's a sort of thing to get them to, like, this could be you kind of... This could be you in a bar doing a magic trick to a woman, and then you impress them, and then you have nothing else to go on and you're fucked. Yes, that classic sort of 90s advertising, right? Oh yeah. Yeah, there was this company called Elusionist back in the day who had some really quite tragic videos looking back. Oh no. I wonder as well if people might, because I would imagine for a lot of people it would be easier to just show them a magic trick and then not have to talk to them if that makes sense. Yeah. It's like, you know, if I'm working walk around. whatever, like, here's some tricks, see you later, and then you've got something fun to talk about. I felt like here's some tricks, now I'm gonna hang around and like, so, you guys got kids? How about the sports? What do you feel about the local election coming up? Yeah, I was gonna ask you as well, when you would have presumably done corporate performances before, be it magic or stand-up? you ever had the guy, it's usually a guy, that you know heckles sort of throughout the performance and kind of wants to be like a part of it and then they're always the one that come up and try to talk to you afterwards? Yes, they really want to be in involved. It's funny with magic as well, and this is I think where you have to be really extra careful with like the presentation part of it, is because it's so challenging to people, people get like angry. about it. And then they'll be like, Oh, you just did that thing. I'm like, no, it wasn't that. They try to expose your tricks. It's not so much like, well, yeah, some people will try and bust you in the middle of a trick. Like, oh, he put his hand in his pocket. And you're like, that's sometimes and the worst part is sometimes you did put your hand in your pocket. This guy is not following the trick. He's just But I find with my favorite thing is to deal with those people is the way Seinfeld does it. Right. And he just goes like, who hurt you? You know, what's going on? Yeah, let's you know, like really turn that spotlight on to them. I've noticed that. You want the attention, here's the attention. I had that happen once at a corporate we did where there was just a chatterbox guy. As soon as I asked him, like, what's your name? He clammed up. Like, he did not want to be like, he didn't want to reveal anything of himself, I guess. So, yeah. They want to, they don't, yeah. And oftentimes, sometimes, I've never, sometimes it'll backfire because they do want bad attention. Yeah, that's true. But most of the time, if you just come at them very genuine, you know, like, I'm worried about you. Normal people don't yell out in bars. What's up? Yeah, that's really funny, actually. I might start using that a bit more. It hasn't happened in a long time, but it's always- Yeah, no, God bless. And it's really effective. And then, hey, if it works for a fucking sign fellow, it works for me. I can take his money any day. That is fair. So we have got about nine minutes left in the Zoom call, and I try to keep the interviews to about 40, because that's kind of a good thing. Is there anything else you want to talk about with contact juggling that you just really geek out, like anything that you just love about it, or you want to talk about with it? I think the thing that I find most interesting personally about it is that what we're talking about is clothing it in a presentation of waiting to see someone take it from beyond a technique. And actually, so contact juggling was invented by Michael motion, who was inspired by the death of his friend. Right. And he found this object this beautiful bubble and he developed this set of techniques that helped him to express like the fragility of life and the beauty of his friend's passing. And it was this real piece of like fucking art. Right? And then this guy named James Ernst saw that routine and wrote a book detailing how to do the moves in his routine. Which is how contact juggling started. And it took all of the artistic and emotional context out of it and just presented it as technique. Oh, yes. Okay. I'm with you now. Yeah. And then Michael motion kind of got the shit because he was like, motherfucker, that's my routine. That's very personal to me. Yeah. Now people are doing my thing. What the hell? Without all the, it's kind of calmed down a bit. Um, and apparently he doesn't teach contact juggling, but I read a thing with somebody who did a workshop with him and they said, if you go up and like ask him a question, he'll answer it. Gotcha. But he doesn't go out of his way to teach. So the, First guy, the first guy that was doing it, what was his name? Sorry. Michael motion. M O S C H E N a very influential foundational mime juggler artists. And so when he was doing it first, he was the guy in the labyrinth. When David Bowie did the crystal ball contact juggling, he was the guy doing the arms. Gotcha. That's very cool. Go check that out listeners. Um, so when he was, when he was doing that. when his friend passed away, was he doing it with one orb or did he have a few of them? I think he started with one and then he did a multi-ball routine. Gotcha. But like from a pure technique perspective, there are new things that have come along, but I've never seen anyone put the art back into it. Interesting. And so like, do you have any ideas as to what you could, you sort of tossing around to maybe put some artistry or make it personal to you, anything like that? It's this bubble routine, this idea. I've also been working with slightly smaller balls to use. So in magic, there's a, I guess, a corpus of moves that are like billiard ball moves, where you're making balls appear and vanish and change color. And so combining that with the contact juggling move set and the bubble idea to make a thing. But the problem is that even still, I've got this, and I've got another stuff with like invisible thread and all kinds of like shit I have all these ideas for moves, but actually putting the plot around it is still... I still need to finish the move set before I can do the plot. But often that's not the best way to do things. In really good magic, you do the plot, and then the invisible moves, you work around that, you know? And like, if you're developing proper magic... this is kind of like a weird hybrid of like magic visual presentation while my character work. Yeah. It's going to be another couple of years but I want to take that to FISM which is like the Olympics of Magic and be like boom here's my PhD. That's a good way to put it, your opus kind of right? Well yeah it's like that's like that's my this is my addition to the art. This is something new that I have come up with. That's what a PhD is. That's like answering a new question. So my question is, how do you take a giant sack of techniques and stick some art back into it? Yeah. Damn, that's really cool. I look forward to seeing that, to be honest. I look forward to having the time to do it. Because right now, if I have time to work on that, I have time to be finishing my house bus. So I have to get my life in order before I can do my art. Yeah, that's the sad reality of being a human, I guess, isn't it? Amen. It's all about that laundry. Yeah, so about four minutes left. Anything else you want to cover? No, I mean, I think we talked about that where I wanted to talk about that where it came from, and that idea of, you know, a reason behind all of the moves and then just it being divorced. When was it created? That first, the first couple of guys that were doing it? It was your team called Light? It was in the 1980s-ish? So this is a relatively recent new addition to Magic, isn't it? Well, it's not really a Magic, it's juggling more. Some magicians do it. But the thing is, right, so coming from Contact Juggling and juggling into Magic, there is so much left in being involved in Magic. Now, my Gateway was I wanted to stop being poor. Yeah, so you got into the arts. Magic is breaking reality and juggling is something that your friend does in college. Yeah, okay. I didn't realize. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you now. But I mean, I've done like improv and all kinds of stuff for years and years and years. Yeah. It's a bit easier. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I think that's because the relatively low, I mean, it takes practice to learn cards, but you can learn a card trick in 20 minutes. Right. Yeah. as opposed to if I take 20 minutes to teach you one move and then tell you to go away for a couple weeks and work on it. Yeah. You know, it's just- You have to put in the time, right? Yeah, I mean, saying that, some of like the card cheating stuff is up there. There is card stuff that's really, really hard. Yeah. There's billiard ball stuff that's relatively difficult. But- Are billiard balls bigger than contact juggling orbs? They're smaller. They're kind of about like- 50 to 60, a normal contact juggling ball will either be 75 millimeters for multi-ball or between 100 and 120 for single ball. Oh, we didn't even talk about single ball. Not really, no. Yeah, we did a little bit, but I'm all right. We can do another one about mime and robot dance juggling, it'd be great. That sounds good to me. All right, so we're coming up with the end stretch. I really appreciate you taking the time out of your day to join us. Yeah, thank you so much. We let's quickly have you get your plugs in again. Yeah, so plugs I've got Laugh, Cry, or Die, which is coming out soon-ish. And I'll be around most of the fringe festivals in New Zealand this summer, be it circulation festival, probably be at Aum again, hopefully, and shipwrecked festival. So I've got a little bit of a summer holiday tour circuit that I'll be doing stuff at. So yeah, come hang out in Contact Juggle. I'd love to teach you. And social media pages, you've got a Facebook and Instagram. Steve Wilbury entertainer is me or Steve underscore Wilbury on Insta. I'm very bad at social because I'm very busy. But I have to be like one man businesses as entertainers nowadays, that way. It's really, I really wish I had a social media manager. It'd be so dope. That'd be the dream. I think that's what AI is for. Yeah. The first person to come up with a like a legitimate business model to be amateur sort of semi pro entertainers. Social media manager will be making a killing. Yeah, drop us a line. I'd love to know. Email me if you're interested in that. info at Let me know, please. We're getting over you. All right. Well, I appreciate your time, Steve. Thanks very much for joining us. That was good fun. Thanks so much. And we are back. I hope you enjoyed that. I certainly learned quite a lot. I didn't realize how kind of new and how rare the art of contact juggling was and Steve gave us some really cool insights into how you take a magic show from being like okay or good and make it like amazing. I think Steve gave all his plugs at the end of that so I am just going to chuck his links down in the show notes so definitely check those out. Check out Steve's podcast. We didn't really get into it in this episode, but Steve has had a lot of, I'm not questioning, like injury is maybe not the correct word for it. I think he has a chronic disability, I believe was the term he used. And I think that coupled with a couple of other things resulted in him having a lot of really interesting medical mishaps, I suppose might be the word. He has a show called Straight Outta Surgery in which he talks about being the world's most operated on Magician. I saw a few snippets of the material from this at an open mic night that he kind of joined us on and man some of the stuff that guy's been through is crazy and the fact that he's come out of it the other side being as kind of like upbeat and like just like kind as he is really inspirational. So definitely keep an eye out for any time you see Steve on like he said any of the festivals. If you see his solo show, he usually does one at Little Andromeda in Christchurch. Definitely do yourself the favour and get along. Very very funny guy, very sweet guy, and evidently more than happy to teach you about contact juggling if you ask him about it. So that's all for this week's Rattle Me This. I'm recording this a few weeks into the past, so I'm not quite sure what I've got going on at the moment. Hopefully it's something interesting. Hopefully I've got some new stuff, some new cool things for you to come check out. Best way to see if I have or haven't is follow me on social media at Taylor Riddle Comedy. Facebook is probably the best place to see all the gigs that I've got coming up in one easy place. As always, really appreciate your time listening. I hope you've enjoyed it. I hope you've come away from this podcast having learnt something new and I hope the rest of the week is good to you. I'll catch up with you next time. Ruddler out.

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